taz: Mr. Leuther, the new basic securitywhich is intended to replace citizens’ money, provides for faster and harsher penalties. How do threats of sanctions affect people in a depressive phase?
Jürgen Leuther: This is poison for people in depression. I also fell ill myself, and during that time I wasn’t able to leave my apartment or take care of things. As a trained therapist, I was a professional, I helped people in depressive phases for a long time, I knew the entire help system. None of that was of any use to me. I stopped going to the doctor. He stopped giving me sick leave and then my sick pay was stopped.
taz: That sounds terrible.
Leuther: Yes. I was able to live off my assets for a while. Only when I was feeling a little better was I able to seek help. Depression can take very different forms. Letters with threats of sanctions definitely build up additional pressure and increase psychological stress. Some people are afraid to open their letters anyway. They think they don’t understand the content or can’t handle it.
In the interview: Jürgen Leuther
is a qualified educator and systemic therapist with many years of professional experience in social psychiatry. He went through a severe depressive crisis in 2017/18. He brings his diverse wealth of experience to the DDL (German Depression League) to improve the care of people with depressive illnesses.
Federal Labor Minister Bärbel Bas (SPD) has repeatedly emphasized that she wants to protect mentally ill people from sanctions. According to the draft law, there must be a personal hearing if a mental illness is known. Is that enough?
Leuther: The important thing is: what does this law look like in practice? For many depressed people it is difficult to call psychotherapists and get a place. People who are really seriously ill can’t afford that…
taz: And they are probably not diagnosed either. In this case, before all benefits are discontinued – including housing costs – job center employees must offer the “opportunity for a personal hearing”.
Leuther: So then I get another letter that I don’t open that says, “Will you please come”?
taz: Probably yes. How could it be better regulated?
Leuther: In such cases, it should be mandatory to make a home visit, ideally in combination with a social psychiatric service and a social worker. If you really want to help the mentally ill unemployed, you need a lot more outreach help. The job center cannot solve this alone. You need teams of psychologists, doctors and social workers who go through mail and administrative procedures with people and perhaps clarify medications.
taz: But that’s not the case. A lot is left to discretion the job center employees whether someone will end up losing their apartment.
Leuther: If a person cannot comply with requests and therefore fears becoming homeless, it is really about existential fears. Job center employees shouldn’t be hobby psychologists, that’s dangerous. Especially when you consider: Many authorities are short-staffed, overloaded and have long processing times. There is little time to address individual stresses. It can only work with a well-developed outpatient support network. Then I can go through everything with those affected: What does the letter say? What needs to be done? And if a person is unable to go about their everyday life or suffers from anxiety, then they need a sick note – and that is the job of doctors, psychotherapists and psychiatrists.
taz: Another new thing about basic security is that tenants have to complain to their landlords if the rent demanded is too high. The Depression League criticizes this. Why?
Leuther: It’s grotesque. Regardless of whether you are depressed or not: Who would like to fight with their landlord in this dramatic housing shortage? At the moment, even average earners can barely afford housing. There is far too little social housing. If I’m unemployed or have little money and live on basic security – should I personally fight rent extortion with my landlord? This regulation is unreasonable for everyone, even more so for depressed people. But it fits in with the trend in this society to increasingly individualize responsibility.
taz: Are mental illnesses more common among people who are unemployed than in the working population?
Leuther: This is assumed for the long-term unemployed. Unemployment and mental illness can reinforce each other. If I work regularly and have a lot of money, that doesn’t protect me from depression – there’s no question about it. But living conditions also play a role. When I look at single parents with children, there is so much pressure in life. Child care and schools are on edge, jobs are precarious, there may still be a divorce war. These factors can increase the risk. People used to talk about reactive depression, but diagnostics have abolished that.
taz: What does that mean?
Leuther: In the past, a greater distinction was made between, for example, whether one became ill because of drug use and withdrawal, because of a predisposition, or whether one was reacting to difficult life circumstances, such as unemployment or a death. Today the only distinction is whether it is a simple, moderate or severe episode. People have somewhat forgotten that depression can always be a reaction to adverse living conditions. This is also important for treatment. For example, we know that exercise helps with depression, but if I’m afraid of losing my apartment and my environment is unstable, then jogging around the block doesn’t help either.